Well, surprise surprise! I actually did read your whole letter. And you have made a LOT of assumptions about me.
For one thing, the church I was raised in, in the early years was a lot like you assume the church I’m in now would be. But when I was about 9 that pastor retired. They got a new one who was weird or something, and ran him off about two years later. Then, we got a preacher whom, at the time, I think was the best in the world. He was much more of a teacher than a preacher, and he made learning the Bible fun. He taught me a lot. He was one of the best men I have ever had the honor of calling friend. (And these days, I am thinking such men are fewer and fewer to find.) Anyhow, a lot has happened since then, his wife died and the next one changed everything. I had no idea how much difference a good woman could make in a man’s life.
Anyhow, he never taught me hate, only love in those good years. He was the kind of man that people just gravitated towards. He always kept you laughing, and those were some of the dearest times in my life before everything changed. You can read my blogs if you ever get curious as to that sad story, but I never learned hate from that man.
What I did learn from him was to study to show myself approved unto God. To always let the written Word have the final word. Never to put the word of man over the Word of God, because the Word of God is the true Litmus Test of truth. And one big red flag for me, is when man has written several paragraphs up to a whole essay explaining why two or three verse do not actually mean what they say. As if God cannot keep His own Words pure, or couldn’t see to it that capable enough men were around to translate it. On something that important.
A lot has changed since then. He changed. I never have met a preacher since that could hold a candle to him, and I miss those days and that wonderful fellowship we used to have together. Since then I have discovered a lot of snakes and wolves in churches. Very few sheep who know the Lord. No matter what church I go to, they are all hung up on some tradition or other, and they have this attitude that everyone who doesn’t hold the same traditions aren’t really saved. Has nothing to do with what the Bible actually says on the matter. I haven’t had a pastor or a church family in a very long time because of this. But I have given up pretty much on ever finding a church that is interested in the truth more than money or tradition.
Please don’t assume that I am accustomed to letting anyone do my praying or my thinking for me. I am well rehearsed and quite capable of both, thank you. And, contrary to whatever you have assumed, I do know my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I speak with Him constantly. And I am also very familiar with my Bible. Here is where the differences between us come in.
I am sure you are familiar with the Old and New Testament verses which clearly state that homosexual sex is a sin. I am familiar with your reasoning as to why they do not actually mean what they say. Quite simply, that reasoning IS adding or taking away from those Words, which is a dangerous thing indeed.
Now, I understand that you claim some of this was already added in later. By this reasoning, the Holy Spirit inspired the Word, and according to John IS the Word, but yet, allowed that Word to become corrupted. This, along with the fact, that the very commandment of God way back in the beginning about being fruitful and multiplying, REQUIRES opposite sexes, makes your side very much less credible.
About your talk about sadness and pain. According to the Bible I read, the ending of sin is destruction, although there is pleasure in it for a season. It also says to tell the truth. Now, maybe in your mind real love means allowing deceit if it causes happiness, even if the end thereof is destruction. Maybe you are the type who thinks that true love does not have in mind what is best for it’s object, but would selfishly pacify it’s object rather than risk the pain of the truth. Even though the joyous lie will cause much more pain later, the longer it goes on.
That was how my ex “loved” me. And I can tell you from experience, true love tells the truth, even if it does hurt and cause pain. If you have to lie then it is not true.
I do take offense at your insinuation that I was lying about you being a nice enough person. I have met plenty of people who were very nice and not saved. As a matter of fact one of my favorite people in the world is an atheist and I would trust him with my life. And that of my children.
If you think it is that I “hate” gays, you are also wrong on that account. My ex’s brother was gay, and in my opinion the best of that whole clan. And they always made fun of him when he came with his boyfriend for Christmas and such. After a few years of that, I pissed off the whole family because I told them they acted like a bunch of wolves.
From what you say, it seems that this “Christian love” you believe in does not call out any sin at all because that may hurt some feelings. But the Bible says that if you are not chastised you are not sons but bastards. (That might hurt someone’s feelings!) So, if you can sin and feel no condemnation from the Holy Spirit, then you must not have the Holy Spirit. And Paul lists over and over things that will keep you out of heaven. (He was not God, but very judgmental. Uh-oh!) And what he said was that if any other, even an angel of light should preach a different gospel than he did, that it was not to be trusted.
The gospel you are preaching is a very different one. You have made Christianity into an anything goes policy, anything, that is, except talking like Paul did about calling out sin for sin. And Paul also said that God forbid we sin so that grace abound.
Now, I read your whole letter. I wonder if you have read all of mine? I wrote this all out just for you. It was not a copy/paste, which it appears you have done for me. (A lot of times when you copy/paste, the sentences change lines before it gets to the end, or there is only one word in a whole line, like the letter you sent me has.)
In conclusion, I already know what the Bible actually does say. And you do to. You have rejected those Words for something you are more comfortable with. Something that is less painful for you. You say that everything else just must not be of God, because it causes you pain. I have never gotten the impression from Jesus or anything in the Bible, that if one is going against what God has stated, that not causing them pain was more important than telling them the truth. Your version seems different. I suppose this is where we part ways.
~Samantha
Comments (33)
Wow. I don’t know who the blogger is — but he/she needs lots of prayer. If they are saying to merely feel the feelings or attraction of being gay, then that is not a sin. However, to engage in the act is clear sin and cannot be anything but confirmed over again in scripture numerous times. It seems that he/she has been convinced that homosexuality is ok in the eyes of God. Tragic–and deluded. I wonder how this person supports his/her position from reading scripture in light of all other passages?
@ShamelesslyRed - This person has a live in partner, and evidently hold a position of leadership in their church. According to this person, the way we understand those scriptures is corrupted. The parts that do not fit this person’s life are twisted around to have a different meaning, or claimed to have been added in later. I have ran into this before.They say the verses about Sodom were because they were not hospitable to the angels. And that Jesus confirms this when He mentions it. They say the verses in OT Law mean that it is only a sin for a straight man to have homosexual sex. And the verses when Jesus healed the man’s slave without going to his house to do it – they say that that slave was actually a gay lover, and somehow this shows confirmation in their lifestyle.
Samantha, I detected no hate or any animosity in your tone at all. If anything maybe exasperation? But maybe I’m just reading into it or transferring my own feelings. In any case it seems there are those who become so defensive that they become rather intolerant and legalistic in their view of Christianity and the bible. They become so entrenched that they would rather twist the scriptures than face the truth. Your patience though does shine and truthfully so does the grace of God. Blessings.
@mtngirlsouth - I’m trying to be objective about this dialogue between the two of you and trying to understand both sides. To be honest, it’s hard to judge something like this as far as if you went too far in some of the things you said to him. I am in agreement with you that homosexuality is a sin. I’ve never seen any convincing apologetics to show that it’s not. It’s much clearer that it is. I’d say that this person is definitely not worth arguing with over this subject matter.This person has a live in partner, and evidently hold a position of leadership in their church.I know who this is but I wasn’t aware of that. This person has admitted to being gay?
@followfreedom - Thank you so much! It is good to get another person’s feedback. Sometimes you think maybe you said something.@musterion99 - This is something I was told a while back.
I think this is well done, Samantha. I responded to this bloggers post last night. I didn’t have any idea that it was directed to you mostly because there were many of the usual commenters who disagreed for other reasons. This person is committed to this sin and really needs to find a way to justify both faith and sin. I can’t imagine but he/she does not feel the discomfort of this compromise and you are not making it any easier for him/her to continue to live at peace when you point out scripture. There’s a part of me that would like to feel comfortable with my sin…. It was in the vein that I commented last night. Are any of us restricted in our sexual behavior/proclivities? The only “criticism” I would add (for both of you actually) is that perhaps suggesting to someone that they are not a believer is counter productive. I’ve had folks suggest that to me before as a way of illustrating how frustrated they were with me and it’s painful. God may be working in this person’s life even now and He is merciful and long suffering. Anyway, those are my thoughts for what it’s worth. I think you were loving and patient without compromising the message of scripture.
I believe also, that you’re on the right track. All I considered saying has already been said by the earlier replies.
I am pretty sure I know who it is. There’s a reason I unsubbed & unfriended that site quite a while back. Their attention-seeking antics get old and they are not interested in actually being what they claim to be.
Interesting exchange. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a situation where the person holding the view homosexuality is a sin has their spiritual state called into question.First, I saw nothing in your responses which would be “hateful.” The person simply seems to be one of those folks who thinks any criticism of his life entails hate. Actually, to hate this person would be the position to tell him his lifestyle doesn’t matter and God would accept him just as he is. What would be interesting is to hear the response he’d give to Romans 1:26-27 where homosexuality is show as a sign of rebellion from God.I’m not going to say that a homosexual can not be a believer. And I’m not going to say such a person who falls back into their old sin would lose their salvation, any more than a fornicator who came to salvation and sinned again would. But the question would have to be asked if the person came to salvation without ever repenting of, and giving up the sin at all could claim to have come to salvation to begin with. Unfortunately there are far too many churches and denominations which have taken the position that God will accept the position that one can be saved and still embrace their sin. This represents what I consider to be the heretical position one can accept Christ’s salvation and not His Lordship over their entire life. Again, a common struggle for all sinners, but this person seems to have the belief he doesn’t have to surrender his whole life, just the areas he wants to.Again, I would not describe your responses as hateful. I would say that you must have pricked him a number of times considering the growing hostility in his comments. Unfortunately, my church’s views on this kind of thing would be to correct the person individually, then with another believer, and finally take the matter to his church. Here on Xanga, action two is possible, action three is not (unless one knows other Xangans who are members of his church and can take the matter up). In this case, from what I’ve read, his church actually seems to follow his beliefs, which in my beliefs, would make it an apostate body, not a church. The final action is separation from the person in question.Simple facts. The person is a practicing sinner. He doesn’t see his actions as sin. He views criticism of his lifestyle as hate, and not only shows no intention of considering your comments in the spirit they’re given, but his attacks back on your character get worse. He claims to be a believer. Bible is clear. Separation is in order. I’m not saying don’t pray for the person, but a continuing association with him is pointless. In fact, my church would hold that a continuing association in itself would violate the teaching of Scripture. If the person holds the belief they are a Christian, then they are subject to discipline as one, not treatment as a sinning nonbeliever.Personally, I always have a problem with the last step, because in essence it is sort of writing the person off as a lost cause. This is especially difficult in a forum like this where once you do, unlike for example, with a person you actually “know,” you probably won’t hear about them again. We’ve had member of our church who’ve been disciplined in this manner, and one can usually find out how the person is doing. In this case, once separation is instituted, you probably won’t be able. And for some, this is hard, especially with people you know and care about. But in this case, it’s called for and I really can’t see anything beneficial in continuing association, particularly if the person is in a church which reinforces his sin as acceptable. He’s not going to accept any argument from you when his spiritual authority considers the sin not to be one, and even, if I understand from other comments, has elevated the person to a leadership role in the church, which the lifestyle the person leads violates the requirements listed for such a position.Which brings me to a lesson my Drill Sargent in the Army taught me. Life is a series of battles. The secret is developing the wisdom to recognize which are winnable and which are not, and not wasting time and effort on those that are not. In this case, I’d say it’s a time to knock the dust from your sandals and move on.
No hate but I am sure this person sees hate in any disagreement on this subject. Not much to be said about their argument. Other than the hardest truth to ever beleive, is the one you do not want to beleive.
Hey, Samantha, what a well thought out response to this person who seems to think that the world of the Bible revolves around himself and his ideas. I like how he accuses you of being narrow minded (how narrow minded of God to create everyone with the same needs of air, water, food, and clothing! How “Narrow” God is) and callous, making the Bible out to be about you, you, and you again, when he continually talks about how he has helped a lot of people, he knows what scirtupre is about, he is an expert on the Holy Ghost, he know because he has done this and that, and he is more knowledgeable, etc. etc. et. al. ad nausaeum (he used “I” so often, I thought I was reading the transcripts from some sort of congressional meeting with all the “Ayes” [but never a "Nay" unless he was talking about you....] and I’ve always found it amazing how people who live in a similar way are always about the help they have given, yet leave God glaringly and blatantly out, as if the *ahem* “gift” they’ve been given is from themselves; had a pastor in Japan who talked about how he had built his church for 25 years, and all the sacrifice he had given, the things he had done, yet he never once gave God the glory [sounds like your blogger-friend here]. Seems like these kinds of people are more self-serving [idolatrous???] than God-serving…) and he has the unmitigated gall to call YOU idolatrous?!? I had to bite my lip from roaring with laughter!!!!Anyway, your responses to this person were well thought out and concise, to the point, and sharp. I wonder what version of the Bible this person reads, because personally, I read the KJV, and every time it talks about homosexuals, they are either called “effeminate” or “sodomites”, and Leviticus is pretty detailed in its descritption of homosexual activity (as are Genesis and Judges, when the men of Sodom and Gibeah rose up to commit homosexual rape) and its condemnation.Will keep you and this person in prayer! Keep up the great work, and stick close to the LORD…..and I will say this too, Samantha: don’t stop looking for true teachers and preachers of God and his Word. They are around and he will lead you to them.Blessings sister!!!-JasonAddendum – Just a thought: was Christ using hate-speech when he called the Pharisees the brood of snakes, hypocrites, and sons of Satan? Just a thought. Yoour words sounded more like His when he dealt with the Jewish Religious Leadership of the day, and yes, these words he spoke were more out of exasperation for their selective blindness. Go with peace today, for you are in great company….
I did not read the entire thing. I read a few lines in and got far enough to make some assumptions. I saw no hate from you. What I saw was another blogger again, picking and chosing what they want to read, and pick and chose out of that, what they want to believe. They not only did this with what you wrote, but apparently, with the Bible as well. What this person fails to realize is that feelings and temptations are something we all have. However, it’s up to us to not act upon them. Having a temptation or a feeling does not necessarily make a sin, it’s how you react to those feelings. This is true in wether a married man sees a good looking woman and has impromptu thoughts about her, (which he does not act on and quickly dismisses them) or a person has homosexual feelings. It’s wether or not you act on them.Their comparison to “not being allowed to be in a church if your a southernor” is another fallacy argument. You cannot chose where you are born. That is not the same as homosexuality. (yes, there are still plenty of studies out there that show you’re not born gay) Now, if he worded it correctly and said “you cannot be in a certain church if you ACT southern” it would make more sense as you have the ability to chose how you act. A homosexual can indeed be a good Christian. They can get into heaven easily if they do not act on those temptations. Just as for coveting. It’s hard to not covet what your neighbor has if they’re rich and you’re not. It’s a sin when you consciously covet those things and obsess about them. Not if you just say, “wow, nice TV. Hopefully I can get one someday” and not think about it again.
@bakersdozen2 - [The only "criticism" I would add (for both of you actually) is that perhaps suggesting to someone that they are not a believer is counter productive. I've had folks suggest that to me before as a way of illustrating how frustrated they were with me and it's painful. God may be working in this person's life even now and He is merciful and long suffering. ]I agree with that. That’s one thing that I try to be really careful about. If someone says they believe and have faith in Jesus, I’m not going to judge whether or not they’re saved. I can’t be 100% sure, only God can.
Sam, I thought you handled the entire exchange beautifully. I mean beautifully. Truth and love. I especially loved this paragraph:About your talk about sadness and pain. According to the Bible I read, the ending of sin is destruction, although there is pleasure in it for a season. It also says to tell the truth. Now, maybe in your mind real love means allowing deceit if it causes happiness, even if the end thereof is destruction. Maybe you are the type who thinks that true love does not have in mind what is best for it’s object, but would selfishly pacify it’s object rather than risk the pain of the truth. Even though the joyous lie will cause much more pain later, the longer it goes on.Absolutely undeniably correct, and so well communicated.Sister, if you’re concerned about your own responses, I’ll tell you right now that I haven’t been this proud of a sister in quite a while. Finally someone is working to protect and even restore the family honor! I love you in Christ, Sam!Is the fact that “love” exists between persons of the same sex something that should indicate that it is Father’s will that homosexuality nopt be considered a sin? Hmmm… didn’t gays love each other before Yeshua came? If so why didn’t that excuse them then? Here’s what father’s word says about the “love” they paint their rainbows with:For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; (Romans 1:26-28)Feelin’ better yet? You better be restin’! Peace, sister.
@bakersdozen2 - That’s funny that this blogger did a blog directed at me after saying that they thought this is where we part ways also. I don’t think I am going to go read it, even though I will admit I am curious. You see, I looked up every verse on false doctrine I could find after this exchange, and from those I get the impression that I ought to just move on. Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. But, I hope we all pray for them. Only God knows for sure whether He has given them over to a reprobate mind. Thank you for your feedback. I will keep that in mind from now on. I know what you mean about the implications of not being saved. Thank you for pointing that out for me!
@alampi - Well, thank you for the input. And I know it was long, so thanks for reading!
@radicalramblings - You are probably right. I did the same thing after this exchange.
@Simian_Musings - Thank you for all the feedback! I quite agree with everything you said. And it wasn’t until I began to meet people on the ‘net that I met people who thought like this either. Seems these days that if you don’t like what the Bible says, you just rewrite so it says what you do like. And I do think I will just avoid this one, as I said to bakersdozens2.
@trunthepaige - I guess so. It is so frustrating to be told that they know what I am thinking better than I do….and have them be so completely off! Thanks for reading all this and your input! I appreciate it much!
@JandJinJapan - I like how you brought up a new point. This person certainly did talk about themself a lot more than the Word. And I do hope to find a good church. Thanks for the input!
@grim_truth - Yes. And I believe that if God says it is a sin, He can help heal the cravings. If other strange sexual desires, like sex with dead people, or animals can be viewed as a mental disorder, why not sex with the same sex? It is so sad that no one even wants to approach this viewpoint because of political correctness these days.
@AOK4WAY - Thank you so much for your kind words! You definitely made me smile. And this is exactly how I meant it, and I wish the other blogger would have taken it this way. And also, I am getting better. Thank you for asking.
@AOK4WAY - @grim_truth - @JandJinJapan - @trunthepaige - @Simian_Musings - @radicalramblings - @alampi - @bakersdozen2 - @musterion99 - @followfreedom - @ShamelesslyRed - Thank you all for taking the time to read all this, and answering my question. I really needed the encouragement, because I would hate to cause anyone to stumble. It is my intention to do the exact opposite. You have been good friends to me, and I really thank you for your kindness!
I missed your message I’ve been off of Xanga so much due to getting things in order here to leave. But, like all the others, I agree–I saw no hate in you–and I have never seen hate in you. (((hugs)))
Just to let you know, I’m quoting out in one of my articles, but I will not post the webaddress.
My apologies for the delay in my response, I didn’t catch the message until a few moments ago.As you probably are quite aware, our opinions on the topic of homosexuality differ quite a bit. I mention this only so it is in the open, a full disclosure kind of thing. I’ll not get into debating that topic, as this post is not about the homosexuality debate as much as the dialogue between you and the unnamed blogger.Having read through the dialogue, I can understand both perspectives. That being said, it seems the other poster came here looking for a fight. Your responses calmly and matter-of-factly stated your position and reasoning; I sensed no hostility in them at all. I cannot say the same for the other poster’s responses. In fact, I’d say that your responses in this conversation illustrate why talking with you, even on topics on which we disagree, is still a pleasant experience. You discuss rather than argue. The other poster argued rather than discussed.
@Dargon - Thank you for responding. My ‘net is off for the time being, or I would have answered sooner. You make me smile ! I appreciate your feedback, especially since you and I have different beliefs.
I suppose I am not as intelligent as most of your readers. After about the first 20 paragraphs what was being argued about became blurred. Was the argument about the act of homosexuality? the forgiveness of God? should we or should we not tell people about Hell? I read accusations and defenses I think from both sides…In short, I can’t comment. I hope this can be worked out amicabily.
@mtngirlsouth - You are a mean, evil, evil person for sayin this.@ShamelesslyRed - It’s not true, here is my side of the story http://jccroom.xanga.com/736606890/why-are-conservative-christians-so-hateful/@musterion99 - Think you for trying to make her back up her pack of lies.@JandJinJapan - @AOK4WAY - @grim_truth - @JandJinJapan - @radicalramblings - You should see my side of the story before condemning and spreading gossip.
@JCCroom - Were you thanking me? You wrote think.
@JCCroom - Honestly JC, I don’t think I condemned anyone or spread anything at all by standing beside my sister in Christ and giving her my honest opinion about the exchange as it’s presented here. If I had seen it differently I’d have told her so, and I think she knoew that when she puit this entry out here for us all to see. She trusts us to tell her the truth. We’re alive in the truth, man.If you think I might see things differently after reading it elsewhere or reading your account of the exchange, I’m willing to do that. If I do, are you willing to talk about it afterward?
@AOK4WAY - I went back and made this private again so he (if he even actually is a separate person from nidan) cannot see this. I also made the other two blogs completely private.
@mtngirlsouth - That’s cool sis. His will be done. Peace